*** We take great pride in naming Professor Mohammad Yunus, the founder of the Grameen Bank, as Ihc Daily .Star Man of the Year 1995. We honour him today for the freshness of his ideas, the practical applicability of his vision and for continuously infusing scientific innovations in our development process. When so much appears to go wrong, Prof. Yunus shows us through his untiring work that so much can actually be made to go right.

'Poverty," says Prof. Yunus, “is not only a state of having no resources, but also of having no hope of changing one's lot. When hope dies, a person really and truly becomes poor. Till that moment, even with everything else gone, a person can still strive to change his or her situation.” "Grameen' is the process of restoring that fimdamental hope in peoples hearts by making available micro-credit through the use of which a villager can give a concrete expression to his or her cherished hope.

Not only in the heart and .minds of millions of rural people, also in the hearts and minds of (Dg Daily Star readers, Prof. Yunus has rekindled a new hope . He has given us the courage to dream again. By giving us practical demonstration, through his Grameen Bank, Grameen Trust, Grameen Foundation and other such bodies, he has shown, that Bangladesh can move towards sustainable development on the basis of what she has. All we need, he says, is to change our mindset, and trust the development urge of the people. "Stop thinking our people as stupid people, just because they are illiterate. They have thousands of years of accumulated skills. Let those skills have a free play, and you will see how our society will move forward."

We honour Prof. Yunus today because of his untiring faith in our*poor people, whom we are used to thinking of only as a burden. We honour him for his love for the destitute, for his belief in the future of our country, for his organising ability, for his leadership ability, and for bringing so much honour and prestige for Bangladesh in the international world. We especially honour him for his human qualities, among the most prominent of which, is his humilitv. —Editor ***

*** Shr Shih ^hr interviewed The Man of the Year. Prof Muhammad Yunus last week to find what about his ideas, experiment and work has so attracted the world’s attention that he is now a household word in so many countries of the world. Modestly disclaiming his fame. Prof Yunus tells the Star Editor. Mahfuz An am. about his life, his work and his dreams.

We hope that our readers will be as inspired by this visionary man. as we have been In choosing him as The Man of the Year. ***

The Daily Star (DSf Wfoit are the new concepts tn the Grameert experience?

Professor Muhammad Yunus (MY): If you took at the banking ayatem. the whole world accepted it as It is. Nobody raised any question. Nobody wanted to touch the basic thema on which modern banking was based The basic principle has always been, the more you hive, the more you can get. If you prove you have a lot of wealth, then the bank is willing to give you a lot more

So automatically It denied credit to the people who do not have anything The bank Ing system explains that it does not'glvc the loan because the poor are not credit worthy.

So credit worthiness by M.-■elf Is defined by the banking system as one who already has why the poor are said to be not credit-worthy What to credit worthiness ' Grameen actually questioned the whole cowept of credit worthiness

If there is anything that Grameen has contributed in tlie overall situation, it is the questioning ol the lundameri tala of the banking system which considered collateral to be the basis on which banking can be and has to be door If people were told they will ‘ never be able to fly because 'they doo I nave wings II would seem to be very justifiable It Is similar to saying 1 cannot give you credit because you don t have collateral But peo pie did not accept that human being cannot fly because we do not have wings. They defied all the .principles and bount to build machines that helps us to fly But in banking nobody defied all the established principles, in the case of flying not only did people learn how to fly. they fly with speed, and cover great distances. But nobody challenged the banks because this is ri fated to the poor.

So credit became a kind of caste system worldwide In this cast the Brahmins are the rich, and all the doors are open for you. The poor are the untouchable because that is what the banks say. Then you have no chances are open to you. You languish, you suffer, you go down. If the doors would have been open equally for everybody, you would have seen a tot of nnractes. Nobody would stay down because there were ladders of opportunity ail around them. They may fail once, fail twice or-thrice, but tfie fourth time they were fine The question of poverty would be very difiierent in the world if money was available to everybody May be there would

still be poor people, but they would be temporarily poor, not. permanently poor people whd live for generations In poverty.

DS. What do you mean that we would have seen a lot of miracles?

MY: Poverty is not Just not having money It is not being hble to dream about yourself You don't have hopes. If that door was kept open, people could dream.That would make life much more tolerable, because you could dresttn. you could say some day 1 will do this or that, or my son will achieve this or that If you are poor, you cannot dream that you sill change your life. You know that your son will be poorer than you. because the doors arc not open

So I think that. K is a fundamental change we Intro dueed. In Grameen Bank that even the |K>ore«t can borrow and pay back It la not simply professing that, it la demon slratlng H If I would have writ ten ten volumes on that , no body would have bothered They would have written ll uti as a crazy idea of a crazy per son Bui the fact la that Grayieen has done It

Wtxn we started they said It worked because It was done in a small way When we ex ponded they said it is okay so far but otte more step, you will fall We took ten more steps and we data t fail They said that it was a pecuhai thing in a peculiar country We became a nationwide thing We today we handle the large si amount of money any bank can handle in Bangladesh We didn t fall apart This is now being followed tn other coun tries so n a not just a peculiar thing in a small country. It has happened in Malaysia, in Philippines, in so many other countries including the United Slates So there must be some thing mil

DS: What are some of the other things Grameen intro disced?

MY Secondly, it has been said that you can give money to , the poor, they can even pay you back. But the question is are likely to be better off because they don t have any skill to use this money. The agreement is that if you give this money, they will use it in a way to earn tiny bits of money but they will never be able to charge their economic situation. My position has always been that we should never consider a poor person or a Jobless person to be an unskilled person To me. he or she is a very skilled person The fact that a human being Is alive with all the adversities

around, this is tremendous skill, the skill to survive. Just support that skill. See how far he or she can go. Leave the decision to her, or him. They will always find a way I believe in the individual s capacity to take of themselves. We do not consider this in our text books. We think that we have to Impart knowledge to them givt them skill.

It is a very common concept. It Is said, they can produce things, but you have to help them market their prod ucts otherwise they cannot survive. My. response is. do you think they are stupid people? If anyone says that I have produced a lot of things but I cannot sell, my question is why did you produce something that you cannot sell? Aren t you a smart person? Dant you think about what you are doing? It Is your fault. You have to produce whatever can be

I Hunk ilw iiiaikri problnu lias been created by the>ui sultanls, by the experts They tell you. poultry is life thing tot Hangfajrst. You must produce poultry So you come up with a poultry programme You omr up with all kind of lu illlating aspects of the programme, you give credit at a cheap rate, ex pert* qome and so on In order to get these facilities every body wants m grow poultry This leads to a glut tn the market In Grameen we aie not the sales person ol the poultry The goat, the cow or anything Wr provide credit, and llu- borrowers decide wtial they can and should invest in

DS AU this Is micro level aettuutes Dori t you feel the need of a macro-view'?

MY Macro view is very Im portant. What I am saying Is don't mess around with people They have their own view They can handle it But in the name of training, you are probably doing them a disservice. In the name of training, you are making them feel they are stupid, it may sound like a joke but this is serious. 1 said. . if every woman before she got pregnant had to get training on how to handle pregnancy probably not many people would get pregnant. They would be too scared after going into the details of what it is. how it is. Because it comes so naturally, everybody accepts it Everybody delivers a child. H is a problem if you have to teach a person how to become a businessman after borrowing 500 taka front Grameen Bank You would have a classroom, textbooks, pictures You would start the lesson. What is business?" Business means blah. Hah. blah. ... All thia would te so complicated. I myself can't remember what business Is Then you would hove to teach them about accounts I can’t imagine such a system. I said for God s sake. Just give the money They know what they

want Otherwise you will be insulting the' people s common-sense. In most of the training programmes, you start off by humiliating the persons.

Training comes to use when /somebody is looking for something. The demand for having most come from the people first.

Then you can say. I will show what It Is. because you wanted to know about it.

DS. So you are not girthg them the answer, you are teaching them to ask the questions.

MY; Exactly We say. look, we have money. If you have any Idea how to use money, come and talk to us. We don’t want to talk about infrastructure, or to give them doctors to take care of their rows, feed to be pyduced etc. That fa out ovg business We Just give money to support people's our ini native. 1

DS: So going back to our

original point your Jlrst tnuxutlori was to question the funrllimetiluls Ser or nJ was to trust tn the people t comnuvi

MY We trust In the ability and the potential of the peo pie Dil* makes a tcemeiwtou* difference It is vurpoung how a Bangfadesill woman can take two Iu>uii.iih1 i iku irrym a tunk and invest It and return it with a 20 per cent interest and Willi have something left over Even Hie poorest and the mosi so called ignorant person has the basic cxMiunon sense to do this

Our third imoratlon is tile universality ol it People always say that only t tie entrepreneur among the poor will come to you and lake advantage iA our redn la tllty but the Urge number ol the real poor will remain untouched Our post tton is that every human being is a potential entrepreneur They never got the opportunity to show it You give them an opportunity. II comes out

In the beginning a woman doesn t even realise that she can tie an entrepreneur Uke any other entrepreneur, she deals with her first investment very cautiously because her ex perience and knowledge Is so limited

But once she gets the hang of It. she goes further. Some are A class entrepreneurs, some are B class en trepreneurs But there are no non-entrepreneurs It is Just a question of time and environ meqt The person we are viewing, as a non entrepreneur, given tby right kind of environment. will probably be an A class' entrepreneur.

I keep saying that the per son who has nothing, nothing to feed his children qr family, he looks like the n»s't stupid person in the world His mind’ doesn't work because It makes no sense G|v* him a little money all of a sudden that mind starts tiring because

there is a meaning to that tick Ing He asks, what am I going to do with this money What quick move will I make and make sure it comes back? A dumb person, all of a sudden be comes intelligent We are intelligent because we have cushions around us Take those cushions apart wv are stupid, w quarrel and fight

Time has come to rethink about poverty Itself

History has ' taught us that there were poor in every society The poor are there and always will be there. Society has to give them some crumbs Io survive This -

normal. This Is the welfare svs tem. The welfare system, whether you are talking in the North or the South, came from tills idea If you are out of a Job. we will keep you alive. If you are sick, there is a health care programme If you can t send your children to school, the welfare programme will take care of that I think this is wmngJ

This is the most important aspect of human society In the West you live on charity and hand outs This takes away dignity from human beings It Is onpnrraiU u> ensure human 'llgnlty to every member ot the S'" 'rtv This is the most Im portant responsibility of the •or irty But you don t ensure human dignity All you do Is keep them alive It is almost like putting them in u human

You give them the tiest Irasl |»»vstt4r Just like the lions or tlx tigers In the run They iulve Ox best Irxx! they rton t flare to go around to get food But Oxy are Imprisorxri Plus is a human prison of Ox wel fare srxxty You have not ere alert a way for them to get out and do something for them selves You make your law* in mu h way . That you have taken all Oxir law* away, from them You *ay they can go sr hoof Oxy an gr« a Job But you have taken away the Initiative for doing that Every morning you give them everything they want. They are afraid to move txcause if they get a pAr they lose the benefits This Is true in the US. and many other in duslriallat sx H-ties

DS So the approach has bceri patronising

MY Alway* patronising The MKial system in tlx West has taken away the human diive winch Is the moving force of human society In our countries. the system Is loo re strir'.ions So the human engine is not being able to move The moment you release it. tt goes very far

DS: Can you tell us about some of Grameen Bank's achievements tn 1994

MY: We have done a lot In 1994 One is the Introduction of Grameen Check A lot of our weavers were suffering because of tlx seasonal decline of their income They were com Ing to an almost starvation sit uatton in the Bangla months like Chattra. Kartlk This hap pens every year without fail

We tried in many ways to overcome this. Wr tried to have something like fiotato cold storage. While the prices are down we can store the lungis and sari* with ua. and take the present market price The stored Items still belongs to the womens.

Then the producers can still sell It when the price goes

up and pay back whatever the storage price was.

Even that didn’t help very much We were worrying about what to do. The handlooms were being sold, giving way to the power looms At the same time »T were shocked to see the garment industry import ing handloom textile from India called Madras check.

In the beginning we thought It was a very specialised kind of material. But some body showed us a sample of Madras check and we realised it Is Just like lungi. like gamchha So how come we arc Uaukituug ’ *’r tan produ- e that The Importers said no. that is much better and cheaper We Insisted that wr will try something. We took some samples and gave It to •our weavers. They said wr can do It. The quality was sd good, the prices very competitive and so we felt wry encouraged The buyers said, how are we going to go to each handloom producer and order this and that? We need hundreds and thousands of yards of the same quality and colouring and so on. So wr thought we could become the Intermediary. We lhr weavers collect it back anil return It to the buyer* We tried that and it has worked This year. In 1994 wr guess that we may be having about 2 million dollar* worth of business. We are planning something like 5 million dol lars in business Wr ran easily double or triple It later If wr can organise ourselves in the required manner. The order is no problem II ran grow up to a billion dollar business The potential Is there

DS The social impact of a revival of an handloom would

MY This M a very important example of what this nation can do. It la here. You doni have lo struggle and bring it from somewhere else Our factories bring this material from India This year I was told the total import was US 164 million dollars of Madras check Grameen Check have moved to about US 4 million dollars Still US 160 million dollars worth of the same ma tertal come from India So you know you have 164 million dollars of business right here in Dhaka itself Then you can compete in other countries like in Sri Lankan garment in dustry. the Indian garment in dustry If Madras check come here, then Grameen check can go there. Business doean t see boundaries or anything. They see whether they make a Taka or lose a Taka . There are a lot of garment industries in the Middle East who would love to buy It here. So potentially it can become a bilHon dollar business.

Then there is another market for flannel. We can make flannel in unlimited quantities, in Bangladesh. Buyers say there duced in thr^aamr handloom. The handloom produced the grey doth. Thal is brought to a maife ^u^ 'T^at flannel. The world Is waiting

Our weavers have hundreds of years of experience doing the Job. It is in their Mood They can smell it. At one time Bangladrwh was on the top ef the world in this tradition. There is no reason why it shoMdn t go back to the top of the world

D8 You do*t need to up

MY Marginally if you want Ja you can If our engineers tmy attention to ft. Efficiency am be increased But no one pays any attention They are using the same handlooms which they used tor centuries If someone pays attention lo this, puts a gear here a lubricant there mobile parts in a regulated way. It becomes far more rfhclrni

OS flow may handloom weaver* do ur have?

MY According to statistics in Bangladesh, there are at least one million families Out of that we arc using nly about 5 000 weaver. This is nothing at all So there is an enor moos skilled population wall Ing to be used A lot of hand loom weaver* have left their traditional work and have be come day labourers, rickshaw wallash etc But if people see developments in that sector, they will come back This is their traditional thing Their forefathers did it they did It Now. they just left because there was no money in it So if this Grameen Check can de vetop the question of using up not only the existing capacity that we have, there will he fresh weavers coming in. There will be new designers

DS TeO us aboui'any other new idea that you are working

MY: We are looking at the prospect of development of Grameen telephone We are trying to set up a network of telecommunications of cellular telephones and the rural areas The idea came because cellular telephone has brought tn a technology where you are not. dependent on any one place it could be anywhere. And Bangladesh has an advantage of a small territory, hardly 55 thousand sq miles. If you go 200 miles this way or that way. you have the whole country in your palm. And it is a very densely populated country, with a very large population. So this is an advantage for any telecommunication system With a small overhead, you can reach out to so many people. As you know communication is power so we want to empower the people, by providing telecommunication at the rural level.

We are trying to make it very cheap. Scale of economy is Important, the larger num her of subscribers you can get. the lower the rate will be per call We have an advantage be cause Grameen has a large number of people within Its

network If wr mn give * fele phone set to nne of Grameen borrower* *hr can sell I he service to every one around It I* like a telephone Irooth In •trad of having a fixed (moth •hr !• a mobile booth You wikI a meMagr lo ha I hat you waul to make a call She omoa to you ao that you tan make a rail to Dhaka to other dialri' . and to I belt relation* or friend* or even betaines* pari nrr* in lanidixi oi Malaysia or wticrrvrr You pay (he charge* ol I he telephone plu* I he ■ omtnlaaloti that ahe came to you So stir liuikro nxxiey And Il you nerd the telephone lor hour*, you can rent ll tor hour*, for day* lor month* depending on ypur need She Is practually an individual । telephone company She run* It she bill* you This become* a good income generating scheme lor tier

We are already collaborating with two international conipa niea in tins regard Ttiey have a lot of interest In our work This is very'exc iting for them, too They are always working with urban people They have never thought of this In a rural sit nation

DS You will start this wuh Grameen members?

MY: Yes This will be very simple for us We can give it as . Joan like the first invest ment The set will cost say 15 thousand Taka You start your business and pay back this money over a period of time

DS: Does your research show how much the cost price will be?

MY: I don t want to mention it right now But it will be very competitive. That is where our edge is. Unless it Is very cheap, we are not In this business We are not here to make money. We are here to make sure that poor people make money out of this. It is not wiiat the company make* it Is what the borrowers of Grameen make.

DS: Are you planning a company?

MY Yes. Grameen Telecom will be a separate company Actually there will be two companies One will be an international company with collaboration of international par tietpation and they will bring everything. Grameen Telecom will be a wholesale buyer of services from that company They will buy time and retail It to Individual* So Grameen Telecom will lie a non profit iwianv They will try to pas* on all the profit making op portunltle* to Grameen Ivor rower*

DS You ore also Inin fish erics Is this a deiriopmenl of I Util?

MY No n*t>rrias ha* dewl oj>rd over the year* from I0M; Now in 1904 wr haw produred nearly a thousand ion* of fish in faind flafierle* and atxnil I 50 Ion* of *hrunp Ui shrllup fiaberlc* So Ibeae are the ariilevement* Wr tie gan with about 40 Iona We have created a Grameen Flaherie* FoutMlaIHMi lo lake care of thl* Wr *ee a fol of putetiUal Ui Banglaiicwii There arc Ml many waler liodic* It la such an attractive business People love fish tliere 1* wa ter everywhere There are wa sonal waler bodle* tor six months nine months there is a lot of waler In some places

In Grameen fisheries, we organise tiie poor Around Ihe pond* and make a deal TTiey provide labour, and devote a very small amount of Ume be ause basically all you have lo do 1» keep an eye that the fish are noi stolen We give them feed which they will throw to the fish. Tin* takes hardly an our or so. That la all And wr give everything which costs money. We give the feed the fries the technology, every thing else. Then when the har vest begins, from each catch, half goes to the landless, half Grameen gets to cover costs. It works out very well. In 1993-94. each landless person re ceived an average of Tk 7000 per person Just from that So this is a good return

DS: Who owns the ponds?

MY We have (wo kinds of ponds We have some which are leased on long term, the majority of the ponds are from the government. Others we have leased from the private owners.

Then. If we enter the areas of the baors. huge water bodies and the haors. you Just can t imagine how much can be produced It is Just a ques Uon of attention You see. the technology is such, that you dont have to do the whole haor in one go You can partition It off by Just putting fish nets. You can divide the haor Into different ponds Even a little ditch has a lot of variety

of magur You don t nerd a big Ixxfrr of water And fish w a goal source of protein

DS Tell us a little bit about uoiir erprrlmentalton with drtp tiibnvelLs

MY II I* working well We initially had • fot of problem* Wr had technology problem* Many had not been sunk prop rrly Wr first Iwiught these tulwwell* from the govern ment Now wr are running It aa a business If you want w.i tr: If you are a farmer we say wtialevrr you grow you give us twelve inaunds of rice and we ensure you water

The problem la. in I fie past, the government gave them free waler The moment we ask lor money they said why should we give money? When anything i* given free or sub kldlsed this • reales ,i market problem* You cannot have both a *ubsidl*ed programme and a fully paid programme Wr cannot give any subsidised programme because nobody I* paying u* for that We have to charge a cost So this is a problem But there is a poren Hal

Our Krishl Foundation Is going around Introducing new varieties of crop* We are growing inalze Maize wasn t a ’-g crop in Bangladesh Last year we produc ed 3000 tons of maize and maize g'>es into poultry feed very well. So there 1* a good market there We keep on Increasing our maize production because there are other possibilities Like vou mix It with wheat flour It Is very tasty

Then we are produr Ing soy abean Everybody said that soy abean cannot be grown in the north but we found that It can Last year we produced noy abean from the local seed. The local seed Is a very old seed which Is going on for several generations So this year we have import'd seeds from India where they are Improving their varieties So we are hoping iMs will produce good results

WexBre also Into sugarcane. Our Bangladeshi sugarcane output Is very low If ti is done In a more organised way. if we have Irrigation facilities, which we have liecause of the deep Jubewell, you can grow on the same plot of land twice of what you normally grow