**The popularity of Non Government Organisations (NGOs) stems from the lack of success of gover.nment to respond to the needs of the rural poor. E'ven a casual look at the literature suggests that NCkOs are asserting themselves as development alternative. The general praise for NGOs in Bangladesh has, however, not been based on analytical' frameworks or detailed empirical evidence.

**Caritas is an international Christian group emphasising both relief and socio-economic development with broad geographical coverage at home and abroad. Therefore, The Daily Star intends to talk to the visiting International President of Caritas to know about the NGO model in terms of its stated goals and objectives.

THEN a. bishop. I was attacked and ▼ V called anjo do mau (demon) and other things. 1 felt a painful Incomprehension. But, at the same time, I thought of how much more painful it must be for all the poor misunderstood people who do not receive as many signs of solidarity as I did. 1 hope that these our brothers, lack neither solidarity, nor justice, nor evangelical charity", said Affonso F Gregory, President of Caritas Inter-nationalls and Bishop of Imperatirz, Brazil in a letter addressed to all its affiliated organisations.

Born on February 6, 1930 , and educated from Greogoriah University. Rome in Theology and in Social Science from the University of Louvian, Belgium, kBishop Oreogory recently visited Caritas Bangladesh. The D.toly Star's representative had a talk with him at Caritas Ban gladesh headquarters. The following is an excerpt of the interview :

The Daily Star (ITS) : Could you please tell us about which you stood alongside the landless against landlords.

Affonso F Gregory (C'regory) : The area where 1 am working now, land owner have gra.sped 5000 to 10,000 hectar.es. Surely this Is something wrong and the people did know that .a Bishop cannot do anything like invasion and occupation of lands. When the first occupation took place, as the bishop I could not sit idle. The people whose lands were occupied were the poor people. Secondly, the land must not be occupied without consent of the people.

As a Bishop not only 1 con- demn but also through our power, of Caritas we should try to help these people to develop their land which the land owners have occupied. And this open position of mine gave a very wrong impression and the land-owners and they have staged demonstrations against me.

DS : Now let us take NGO affairs. There was allegation ■ against NOOs that the people of NGOs with their expatriate specialists made some visits to rural areas. During such visits specialists do not get opportunity to meet real poor people. They talk to men rather than women. They do not hear peo- ' pie talk about poverty because of politeness. They speak more than they listen. What is your comment?

Gregory : That is I think a very important question. Working in the social areas as I have done during the past thirty years In Brazil, ft Is so important to go deeper and to c reate a situation so that people could speak freely.

Theo retically you can have very good abstract plans. But that Is not th.? question. The question is .how to ensure participation — the involvement of the people In the programme. That is from the experiences you gain when you work in the social area. The technicians must help the people with their knowledge so that people in this movement can organize themselves and resolve their own problems.

DS .' Let us have an example of Bangladesh. Caritas has been active tn Muksedpur thana for over a decade and has invested, in addition to relief and credit. Tk 3500 per group in administrative cost. Yet in spite of this, U is learnt that less than 5 per cent of the target group members have been mobilised. Now what do you safi

Gregory : About this concrete project, 1 do not have detailed information.

DS ; Caritas takes pride in the target group mobilizations for creating group solidarity. According to a study, about three-fourths have joined them expecting direct economic benefits. But in the Caritas document it is claimed that the poor persons should not simply be recipients of the Caritas charity and services but they should become the protagonists in their own development. The reality, however, suggests the contrary . Gregory : My comment is that the economic aspect in social work with poor people surely is Important. It depends how you will manage this economic aspect. The idea is that the people are waiting and at the other side the Caritas should be the donor. That is not the philosophy of Caritas. The philosophy of Caritas is to put the people not in the economic aspect but to help them to become human beings. Gregory : That is wrong. We have come to see what we can do. Also we have our ideas, values. We can do something. It is important to do what we can and money is afterwards. It comes as a complement to what they are doing.

DS : In most cases, what we have seen, the NGO workers in their group meetings, are acting like teachers and the members are behaving like student. Don't you agree?

Gregory : In my sense, that Is very bad. Because I think in the dialogue the technician and the experts must learn from the people and the people from the experts. The experts do not have enough Knowledge about the culture in which the people put priority. We cannot fix the priority from outside. Only the people can make priority. All these things the NGO workers can learn only by having dialogues with the people.

DS : One typical NGO com mend is: "The rich exploit", poor must unite, "unity is strength". "Women are equal to men" etc. But these are merely responses learnt by repetition without analysts or structural discussions of their validity. These responses are often held to indicate NOOs' success in popular participation. But without specific proofs of oc- tion in daily social life, these responses are tantamount to a new catechism — may be new, but catechism nevertheless. Isn't It?

Gregory : I agree with what is said in the question. You must be very near the people and nothing aside. For social work It is very important. Otherwise you are only saying things from outside. And that Is assumed catechism. But there must be a dialogue, a long contact and research together.

DS : In Bangladesh It Is thought that NGOs tend to deliberately oppose united national movement on such questions as access to Khash lands or debt settlement boards to curb financial pressures on poor peasants from repayment of high interest and credit on formal and informal loans. What is your comment?

Gregory : I think the national popular movements are very important. The change for a better world comes through these movements. Without national movements it is not possible to change society — one that Is just and healthy.

DS ; But It is observed that NGO people, who are working at the field level have lack of interests in these movements.

Oregory: 1 do not know the situation here. But In my land the NGOs have their own projects but they are also present in popular movements.

DS ; What is your comment an the statement — The rich are rich because God made them so"?

Gregory : That Is not true. The rich sire rich because they have taken too much from the others. That Is the reason. In Christian conception, God has given a bountiful world for everybody. Wealth is for everybody, not for somebody.

DS . Thank you for sharing with us your views.