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Conversation

Dr MohammadYunus of the Grameen BankTalks about his Unique Institution to The Daily Star

Fighting rural poverty has been a major objective of development in most Third World countries. While this aim figures prominently in many national plans and serves as a condition in the aid programme offered by multilateral donor agencies, few can claim to have found the right approach to the problem. In this respect, the Grameen Bank has proved to be an exception, mainly because of its innovative rural credit system which has helped the poorest of the poor in Bangladesh in the field of self-employment. It is no wonder, therefore, that this unique institution has earned recognition at home and abroad. Among international personalities who have commended the work of the bank — and of its founder and Managing Director, MOHAMMAD YUNUS — one can count US President-elect Bill Clinton, Malaysian Finance Minister Anwar Ibrahim and UNICEF Chief Jim Grant. To give the readers of The Daily Star a comprehensive picture of the work of the Grameen Bank, of its origin, current problems and prospects and, indeed, of its future direction, there can be no one more qualified to do so than Dr Yunus himself. Last week, he found time from his busy schedule to sit down with a team from this paper for a two-hour long conversation to answer a whole range of questions not only about his institution but also on the development process in Bangladesh. A dedicated individual, he spoke with intense feelings, without mincing words, answering questions which were candid and often blunt. The team of the Star was led by its editor, S M ALI who was assisted by the Executive Editor, MAHFUZ ANAM and feature writers, S BARI and AASHA MEHREEN AMIN. We publish here the text of the conversation.
The Dady Star IDS): If you look back on the start of the Grameen Bank what do you see as the most vital element that prompted you to launch the
Muhammad Yunus(MY): I guess It was frustration, frustration that came because of euphoria of the liberation that started eroding very quickly. Then in 1974, there was a famine and people died. You cannot cope with that kind of situation. You thought that we were free and now we could move on, but you saw a completely different picture in reality.
In that frustration, I almost completely gave up formal economics, which 1 was teaching in Chittagong University. I came back from the United State* in 1972, and joined Chittagong University and became head of the department. So J thought there is something wrong with economics because it docs not solve the problem. People still die of starvation.
What is the reality of these people? Why can’t they overcome their problem? I started going to the people, In the village next door, trying to understand how they live everyday. This is how the whole thing started. That village. Jobra, became my real university. Education had taken me away from the real cycle of life.
DS: Which year was this?
MY: This started in 74, and continued until '76. The story of Grameen Bank started in 1976. Among many things. I did in this period which arc still around, is Nobojukli. the crop share programme. This later received the RushlrapaU Puroshkar. Those ideas arc be Ing used In what is known as Grameen Krishl Foundation. Everything is there, yet people don't see that the solution Is there. People organized them-
The first spark for Grameen Bank came in 1976 when I was talking to a woman in that vil-lage. Jobra. She used to make bamboo stools. She was earn Ing 10 annas. I was shocked that anybody could spend so long making such a beautiful stool and make less than three-quarters of a taka.
The reason was that she didn't have the money to buy the bamboo. So she hiid to bor row from the trader. She had to sell the product lo the trader. The trader always made sure that he pays her a price that only just covers the cost of raw materials. I ler labour came almost free. 1 thought It was a form of bonded labour, of slavery. There was a very simple way lo ease the situation, if only she had the money to buy the bamboo. So I thought of providing that money, but before thal I checked whether there were other people in the village who needed that kind of money I took a student of mine and went around
We had a list of 42 such people, men and women The total amount they needed was 856 taV Thal was another shock for me Here we talk about big theories, but we don't have the capacity to solve the problem of only 866 taka for 42 able-bodied, eager, hard working people
1 gave this money out of my own pocket and told them that they had lo pay me back, but they dtdn t have to pay me Interest because 1 was not tn the money business But they could sell their product wherever they wanted
So that was the beginning. Scan I realised this was not •uftkHnl because this was a Phonal kind of solution I was killon - *o I went to a bank And they said no
DS. When you face this kind •f fetation. there are many cpitaru Why is U that you hit an dw «dM <# the bonk?
MY First of al. I was not thinking al anything .1 ML I carnr with a blank mind
When you teach at unSvcr ■Hy. ar you have a PhD de F* yau • ‘"♦“M that you know tt al That* what most of our expert* hare, a kind of ar romance You tend to *ee the world with a bird a eye view Later I realised that what you think you ace you are actually imagining, yau don l see . thing You are totaBy blinded by the height
•a. trying lo ^Xl of^at hang up and trying to acquire what I described Ute/on a. Aewaaraa• eye view You face a
tlny^peotelcm Maybe that a that a real There a no scope for imagination How do you
get around, do you climb this wall, do you find a crack and go through?
That's how it happened. 1 didn't plan anything. I didn't have a solution to this woman's problem. I simply saw why she suffered. The cost of the bamboo was five taka. She didn't have thal cash. Her life was miserable because she could live only in thal cycle; borrowing from the trader and selling to him. She couldn't get out of that circle. It's such a simple issue. All you can do is lend her five taka and it's solved. Before I did that I saw that the this situation is common. Maybe some institution should be doing this. But the bank laughed at me. "You are crazy." they said. "This cannot be done."
DS : Was their question mainly of collateral, the ability to pay back the loan?
MY: Ten taka loans!" That's not even worth the papers they hare to fill out," they said. When I insisted, to throw me off completely, bank official asked me." What about collat eral? These people cannot give collateral."
DS : Would you say that availability of credit seemed at that time to you, the most important issue ?
MY : To me, nothing was most important. To me. at that time, that was what was needed. I was not thinking of Bangladesh. I promised to myself in 1974 that from now on I will not say anything about Bangladesh, because that's too big for me. If I can solve the problem of one person for one day. I'll be grateful that I have done something. If 1 can find
five, ten villages, still nothing.
One day in 1978, 1 was attending a seminar at the Bangladesh Bank. The topic of the seminar was financing the rural poor. I picked up a quarrel. saying,"You talk about financing the rural poor, but you never come around to them. We are doing it. and this is the way it works." They said that in order to make a point I had to show the results over a whole-district. I agreed, provided they give me support. Due to this controversy. I was invited lo meet Mr. A. K. Gangopadhyay, the Deputy Governor of Bangladesh Bank All the managing directors of
start. All I needed to do is to get it approved. Later, I'll dis-Invcst the government shares." My colleagues advised me to go with it.
But Muhith left before he could charge the ownership striketure, Syeduzzaman became the next Finance Minister. In '86, he changed the ordinances to bring the ownership to 75% borrowers and 25% government. It still retained elements of government control. 1 continued my struggle, and it went all the way to President Ershad.
He convened a meeting, I was also present to argue our
are saying that banking can be done without collateral. The entire banking system has to be redesigned, not just in Bangladesh but throughout the world. That is the point which was made by Bill Clinton. The same thing happens all over the world: people will not be given credit without any collateral. Denying access to credit for a large section of the world's population is unfair.
That point is at least being examined, not brushed off. That is a success. Credit is a human right. It's not just banking; this is a human rights issue. If food, shelter, and literacy are human rights, I don’t sec how you can pass up credit. Credit allows a person to take command of resources and get things done so that you can start getting food and shelter and the rest Our miseries come’because of wrong concepts. Wc go on merrily discussing development without blinking our eyes at the poverty situation. Some successes arc on the conceptual side, then.
And then, when you start in one village, you think the structure will collapse if it expands. Wc started in one village and now we work In 30,000 villages. People cannot say this is a freak case. We involve 1.4 million people.
This conversation is well-timed. because we just set up our thousandth branch. This is a celebration. We lend out 60 crore taka a month. Nearly the same amount is paid back. We are recycling 60 crore taka and changing people s lives. And they pay 20% Interest.
something that benefits the person for a week or a month, then all the better. It was a person-to-person approach. I didn't think of most' or more’ important. 1 didn't even realize what I was doing. I certainly had no Intention of starting a bank.
DS: Who i happened after hitting a wall with the bank ?
MY : In the first week after this, I went to the bank. My struggle with the bank became so important in my mind I didn't go back lo see what those 42 people were doing. After a lol of debate with the bank manager, he told me he could not solve the problem. He suggested 1 go lo the regional manager A couple of days later 1 went lo the rc gloria! office The manager was Mr. Howladar. I explained to him whal I needed He said. "Governments arc here to help the poor. But the only way I can do this Is for every loanee you have to find one well to-do person tn the village who will be a guarantor.' I immediately rejected that because then the guarantor becomes a tyrant.
DS Would tt be correct to say that you were not up against a bank but up gainst a system ?
MY: I m not going beyond a bank It’s a banking system 1 said I would accept a guaran tor. but only if they made me the guarantor The maximum I needed would be 10.000 taka He agreed on condition that I would never exceed that amount. It took me another six
from the head office At the end of 76 I succeeded In getting the Joan
DS At that time, there was no thought of a Grameen Bank".'
MY None at all. When the bank said tt could be done, and I did H. and people were pay tng me back. I kept reminding the bank that tt worked Their answer was One village » a very Mny place One professor tn one village can work any miracle Unless It s a big oper ■tton we —uMn't know how real this is." I went from one village to two. and still they were not impressed. Three.
all the commercial banks were there. It anyone asked me how Grameen Bank came Into be ing. if I had to mention one
Chittagong 1 would not be known as a teacher but as a banker. I took two year's leave.
I did not want to be a banker, 1 enjoyed being a teacher. I told them 1 would go to any district of their choice and work as a full-time banker for two years.
If 11 works then you pick it up and you carry it on for the rest of the country, and I go back to the university, because my point is made. If it doesn't work, I go back to the university and I will apologize to everybody.
The banks agreed. 1 took leave in 1979, June. They selected the district of Tangall. I knew nobody there. For two years, it worked very well. But the bankers said to me, "You must have worked too hard. With hard work, anything is possible." Now hard work is a pcnaltyl
We then decided to work in
if I want to go back to the university, is lo set up a separate bank.
I wrote a paper giving the options: an NGO bank, a collaborating bank between government and an NGO. I presented this paper at a Commonwealth seminar in Comilla in 1982. The then Finance Secretary AMA Muhith was also attending this meeting. The second day of that meeting, martial law was declared, in a few days, Mr Muhith became the Finance Minister. I proposed to the Central Bank that we be allowed to set up a separate bank. I was rejected. 1 brought the matter to the notice of Muhit
He had visited Grameen projects earlier and had been impressed. He helped me get it through the government. And that's how wc became a
case: "Why do you want to poke your nose into a bank that you have not set up?" The president accepted the amendments I asked for, and now we are a private bank completely
name. it's Mr. Gangopadhyay He asked all the managing di rector* whether they would like to support me When the deputy governor of Bangladesh Bank wants to support you. everyone else wants to support you But they gave certain conditions. One was that I had lo resign from my Job at Chittagong University lo be come a full time banker: an other was thal I not do this In Chittagong. because I am from Chittagong and I enjoy the support of students Away from
fur-fiung districts, so that my presence was not a factor. We took Rangpur in the North. Patuakhali tn the South. Chittagong in the south-east, and Dhaka and Tangall For an other year, people continued to take small loans, with no collateral, and paying very lit lie Interest.
In about '81,1 had the first feeling — why am I running after all these banks? They are not going to be persuaded. They have made up their minds Whal I should be doing.
bank on the 2 October. 1983, through an ordinance.
DS: The ordinance made it an NGO?
MY: No, In fact I had a light with Muhith over that. My proposal was to set up a bank which was 1OO% owned by the borrowers. But when Muhith finally got it approved by the Cabinet, he had to turn it around. He kept 60% ownership for the government. 40% ownership for the borrowers. I was furious at this news. Muhith reassured me, “You can
owned by the poor people.
DS: in all these years, looking back al the success story, what is your own assessment qf areas of success, areas of difficulties. and areas offaiures?
MY: In the beginning, wc appeared to be a bunch of crazy people. At the end of these 16 years, we don’t look like crazy people We took like people with new Ideas. We are taken seriously. That Is one success.
We have shaken the bank ing system of the world. We
Repayment is 98%.
Grameen Bank has underscored one point: this country is not a basketcasc. These 110 million people can change their lives. They are not waiting for charity.
Another success: Bangladesh is known as a pool of corruption, but Grameen Bank is a corruption-free organization. A young employee walks miles carrying cash, because all our transactions are done at the doorstep of our 1.4 million borrowers. That cash is easy temptation. But even our most bitter critic will not say that Grameen Bank is corrupt. Wc have also proved that people can work hard.
On the difficulties part, we have heard the village power structure is Invincible. Nothing happened to us, not a single case where a Grameen worker was beaten up. And we have done a lot of audacious things. Just by addressing the women. We didn't have difficulties with the power structure but with religion. 'People were suspicious that we were a Christian missionary organization. These are natural things to suspect about something unusual
But people became appreciative. ffeople offered us their land if we would only start the programme in their village.
While this is going on inside the country, there is tremendous Interest outside the country. I am amazed that the political leadership of our country never paid much attention lo what we did: whether good or bad. It could have tickled their curiosity a bit, but tt was never taken seriously. No one asked, how can we Integrate this into our policies. We have heard from politicians abroad wanting to know how they can learn the programme, and official dele-gallons keep coming from countries like China. Vietnam. Malaysia. A Malaysian Minister, Anwar Ibrahim, wants to go to hl* constituency taking me with him. The lack of interest of our politicians is not an ob stacle as such, but I feel something Is missing.
DS: Does the lack of interest of our political figures come from their ignorance of
the whole situation or because they didn't do U and somebody else did?
MY: I don't know. Probably they don't see any political angle to It. Politics In our country is based on rhetoric, not on concrete programme*. Grameen Bank is a concrete programme. If 1 convert it into rhetoric, 1 say, "I will have Grameen Bank In very village in Bangladesh," which Is. not possible. And I will not allow politicians to say that.
Sometimes a politicians will say, "1'11 ask Grameen Bank to do this or that," and I rush in and ask them not to say this kind of thing. Grameen Bank is a business.
Leftists considered us a kind of imperialist, expansionist conspiracy. Giving tiny loans to poor people brings only cosmetic changes; we are stopping the Revolution. These are the accusations. My usual response to my leftist friends Is that we are operating in 8000 villages. There are 60,000 villages still around. Go and have the Revolution quickly or we will reach there and you won't have any villages left.
We also had a lot of difficulties with donors. They don't understand how to deal with us. They wanted to dictate. If you want to be of any help to us, we tell them, you have to accept the way we do IL not the way you want us to do it.
DS: It was once reported that you had even refused a massive grant that was offered to you because you said," We cannot absorb it at this moment." Is this correct?
MY: Yes it 1s. and it was offered by the World Bank and it was a soft loan, not a grant. At that time. Grameen Bank was not capable of handling that sum of money. We wanted lo expand at our own pace.
DS: You are saying about the difficulty of hewing not enough political support — now you can continue on thal. And my question would be, would you find a lobby tn the national parliament which would speak up for Grameen Bank and help you to move forward?
MY: You see if we are talking about Individuals in political parties there are lots of them who arc very supportive of Grameen Bank. But as a party programme, they don't see how they can relate the bank to that party programme. What Individual feeling is remains at one level, what the political platform Is. remains completely on another. These two don't lie together. That'* where the basic weakness of our politics lies.
But if you say that we don't have support from a political party, 1 also want to clarify that we always felt that government as an institution should leave us alone. Maybe this is our feeling that the government in a country like ours, is more like a machine that can do more harm than good to you. We couldn't change that machine into something that we feel comfortable with. Because that machine either was created to rule' — whatever that means, still that machine has the feeling of ruling, of telling you what we should be doing. If* not what is It that you’re doing, how can I be helpful; that helpful mode is not in the government, and that'* what we want to keep at a distance.
DS: Let me interrupt you. you have people in the system like Gongopadhaya. Syeduzzaman and others, were also part of the system now. 1 don't dismiss the possibdity of your being tn the system one day as a member of the parliament. Can one say that the government system cannot change or can we not change it?
MY. Sure wc can change tt. A story would narrate some-“Xt three year* back, an Indian, one Mr, Jetlt, Secretary of local government came to visit us along with a colleague from Madhya Pradesh. Neither of them came to talk to me; they wanted to see Grameen Bank.
They visited a branch without any of our aides. So they spent the whole day walking in the village talking to people. It was a very hot day. At the end of the day they came looking for me. They explained why they came. "In India." Jetll said, "wherever we have any discussion about rural development, we come to talk about is a big Indian programme. Integrated Rural Development Programme (1RDP).
"Through IRDP. we credit billtons of dollars worth rupees
and their repayment is extremely low, less than 20%. So they are going nuts, they cannot handle this. But every time we talk about our problems, somebody in the group would say, wc should learn from Grameen Bank ol Bangladesh. We should adopt some of the instances.'
Jell! went on to say that from his experience in civil service, he knew how village folk behaved: they never return money after borrowing. So he thought he had lo see it to believe it. This is a beautiful programme. This was in
So. he said wc thought of asking you two questions. The first question was. "Can a government run a programme like this?"
I replied with a counter question: If a government in India or Bangladesh cannot run a programme like this, then why do wc need a government? If this government can't do II, then let's throw it out and find a new one that can.
The second question was that if the government is completely incapable of doing such a thing, what would be the argument for divesting this responsibility to some one else?
My answer was If the government is incapable of delivering the goods to the people, then there's something awfully wrong with the government. Well, one person cannot change the system even if he is an MP. This needs a political force. None of us Is talking of changing the government in the political way. Wc arc Just talking of the frustration about the government. How we have squandered all the money internationally received and internally generated. While other nations are going ahead, we are going further down. But we have not asked what kind of government we want or how we have a government thal works. So this is something that should be on the political agenda which is not the ease.
DS: Coming back lo the problems, I looked through all the figures and I felt that even if you've achieved what you might call 100% success, you Would be scratching only the surface of the problem in Bangladesh. Can Grameen Bank, change the face of the nation? It if doesn't what other options can we try in addition to what you're doing?
MY: We never attempled lo change the face of the nation. We are In the business of changing the face of the people individually, person to person. Our work is that if you Join us, we'll try to make changes happen through the kind of programme we will bring to you. But If you've liked our methodology why need me, why don't you do II yourself ? If you pick up one more, then we'll have Iwo. If there is someone else who Is impressed then he'll start another one too. Its Just a ques-tion of methodology. Why docs Grameen have to change the nation? If the message that this thing works is loud and clear, then why Is everybody sitting around and sucking their thumbs?
DS: This question Is related to the operation of the bank It self. When it first started, you gat a lot of foreign aid to capitalize the bank. so what the
initial amount that we got and how are you still dependent, if you still are on this capitalization funds from abroad.
MY: First of all this is not true that we have got lot of money. 1 mentioned in the beginning we started with a small amount of money from my pocket. Then wc linked it with the bank which was giving money. The question of money never really arose. We became a project supported by the Bangladesh Bank and all the participating commercial banks were supporting their own project area.
IFAD was looking around for. projects In Bangladesh, and when they are Bangladesh Bank for projects some body suggested, thal this guy working in Tangail is running a project, he could use some money. But after a looking around my project, they said this is not what we are looking for, this is not banking; we are looking for a banking project. After three days 1 get a telephone call, they wanted to ask me questions about how I would expand, why I do things this way and not that way, etc.
A younger member of the mission informed that when came back from Tangail they had already decided not to help this project. But he was asked to give a write-up why they won't support us.
Their writings and explanation could not satisfy senior members. And someone suggested to give me a little amount of money and see what happens. If he grows than later on we will give him more. They 'wanted to participate with Bangladesh Bank in helping this project. Gangopadyay said with such nominal amount it's a big hassle, unless you give a decent amount it is not, worth even talking about. But finally IFAD gave us 3.4 million dollars. Later on. as we grew we took more money from other sources, IFAD, NORAD, Swedish SIDA, that amount was 36 million dollars in '86 then we had 81 million dollars for a phase which takes us to 1993 from seven different donors.
DS: Against this how much did you get from Bangladesh government?
MY: We have never borrowed money from Bangladesh government. We borrowed from Bangladesh Bank a very small amount. Most funds came from international donors.
DS: In terms of the operation, are you now a self-sustaining bank?
MY: This is up to December 1993, phase three of our expansion programme. From January 1994, we begin our fourth phase. For our loan operation, we really have enough money to support our programme. The only area for which, we would be asking for money from outside is for our housing programme. We have given more than 150 thousand housing loans. We want to provide a housing loan for every single Grameen family which is 1.4 million families. Out of that, we have gone so far to 150,000. To support this, we need extra money, we hope to complete everything with 38 million dollars between 1994 to 1997. So the drop is from 81 million dollars to 38 million dollars. We can do without it If we slow down our
housing projects.
The fifth phase will be an unusual situation, we have more money than we need. Problem will be how to go beyond Grameen Bank for investments. Financially Grameen is the strongest fi-
nancial organization in Bangladesh.
DS: One question is that\ sometimes you're being too cautious and that what you need Is an expansion of Grameen Bank. How do you re- / spond to that kind of observation?
MY: Well, if you are treading on a new territory you lend to be cautious. You want to make sure — that the qualitative aspect of Grameen doesn’t deteriorate. As long as Grameen remains strong, qualitatively, financially, tnerc's always the scope for^ expansion.
If I were to redesign Grameen Bank today, I would go for a more independent Grameen Bank in each village rather than a branch of head office which dictates what should be done.
So it would be a totally independent Isolated organization with a support system like Grameen with central facilities providing certain services.
If you want your bank to be audited every year you give us fee. wc know how to do that. If you face problem, we give you advise to overcome problems. But local borrowers own the bank, so the question of massive trade unionism doesn't arise. So if we want to avoid this we would set up Independent banka rather than branches.
DS: Can we say that this Is one of the things you're aiming at?
MY: We are hoping, we cannot say we are aiming, at a network of banks. The
Grameen Trust can help set up independent banks and put up the kind of support wc arc talking about.
DS: Why has the Grameen experiment succeeded? In other words, why has your organizational structure suc-
ceeded?
MY: I think the success comes because we always try to look at the members directly rather than same other external objects, to see whether this is helping the Individual person and wc try to design programme which suits them in general.
Grameen doesn't fit every body In every single way but it's a general shape which fits every body, rather than we come with a programme and say you fit with us. And also a close relationship between the borrower and lender is very important to us. We know each other very well. And also we try to build 5-mcmbcr support groups in a democratic body, a chairman, secretary is elected from that 5-member every year in a specific date without fail and nobody can get re-elected.
Then we have a bigger group call the centre — collection of smaller groups and again the same thing happens. We get a new chairman eveiy y DS: How do you elect the centre chief from the groups?
MY: By popular vote, among the chairman of smaller groups. Then they create thp network of support system. They Hy to help the ones tn trouble.
Wc tell our borrowers that If somebody is in trouble, it should not be the worry of the bank, you settle your problem. The problem should be settled, you just cannot recover the money by forcing him/her. Force is no solution. She is
trapped, cither her husband look away the money, or she lost It. or may be her cow Is dead, or her child is sick, the money utilized otherwise. So no matter what you do to her, she cannot give you the money.
So you try to find out her
courage people lo feel wiser than us. You've the Idea, and as a dumb person we ask you dumb questions. We really feel that wc cannot advise so many people in so many ways. People usually take responsibility when it Is their own idea.
current problem and solve it. If you cannot find a solution share It with the whole centre. . Or you suggest the bank to give her another loan, because her cow is dead. So we go ahead and give her another loan to buy another cow.
DS: And this usually works?
MY: Yes, that's why wc arc still around.
DS: Sometimes there has been a criticism that group pressure is an intense pressure. or that borrowers are harassed for not being able to pay back. Is this true?
MY: Yes, it is possible — but we try to avoid harassing each other, rather we try tb help each other. Yes, there is harassment, but this is not the rule of Grameen Bank. This has been done by the group chairman or Grameen Bank staff. They can put tremendous amount of pressure suspecting she is trying to trick us. But this is not the Grameen Bank way. Our way is to help her overcome the problem. If her cow is dead, she cannot earn.
DS: While you’re putting credit In the hands of the peo pie, you are not tn a situation of bringing tn new technology. A women making bamboo chairs in the old way. without being able to bring tn new technology. So Is there any thinking going on about opening the door of our borrowers with new technology? In the housing side you've done something spectacular, but what about other areas.
MY: We don t give advice lo people. We feel people are much wiser than us. We en-