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Conversation

World Facing Greater Challenges on Human Rights
*** LORD DAVID ENNALS is a familiar name around these parts of the world. Chairman of the Asia Committee of the British Refugee Council, Lord Ennals has a long-held interest in human rights in general, and the rights of indigenous or aboriginal peoples in particular. Although his latest visit to Bangladesh, from May 7 to May 13, was sponsored by the UK-based Campaign for Disaster Prevention in Bangladesh (CDPB), this highly-energetic member of the British House of Lords covered a whole range of issues during his short stay.
He is actively involved in the move to repatriate some 237,000 Pakistanis still stranded in Bangladesh; he visited the Chittagong Hill Tracts and met senior civilian and military officials to discuss the problems facing the region and the indigenous, tribal people of the area; and last but not least, the continuing exodus of the Rohingyas from Myanmar into Bangladesh came in for some sharp scrutiny and comment from the veteran British politician, who served as a Foreign Office minister in Harold Wilson's government between 1974 and '76, and as the minister of health in James Callaghan's cabinet between 76 and 79. Last week. Lord Ennals talked to a Daily Star team led by the Editor, S M ALL covering a wide range issues affecting human rights in this region, as well as outside the region. S M Ali was assisted during the conversation by Assistant Editor SABIR MUSTAFA and Staff Reporter TOUFIQUE IMROSE KHALIDI. ***
VIE DAILY STAR: As Jar as we know your visit lo Bangladesh concerned three major issues — the Rohingya refugees from Myanmar, the Chittagong Hill Tracts, and the stranded Pakistanis in Bangladesh...
LORD DAVID ENNALS: These were really some issues which I had a mind to look into. But particularly I came here for my interest in flood protection and cyclone, the other issues came because of long standing interests.
I came here on behalf of the Campaign for Disaster Prevention which was established in the United Kingdom by Bangladeshi people who are anxious to be of assistance to people in Bangladesh and supported by some people I myself were very Interested in. So the starting point has been, looking at all sorts of things like flood control and cyclone protection shelters and variety of things that concerns disaster prevention in this country.
DS: Would you kindly tells us how meaningful has your visit proved to be. Are you happy about your visit ? Have you drawn some conclusion over your visit here ? If so. what kind of conclusions?
WE: Well, for me personally. it has been a special joy. because it has been for the first time In many years that I have been here under a democratically elected government. I have had the privilege to meet the ministers of that government and the Speaker of the elected House and the 1-cadcr of the Opposition. I am a democrat and I feel happy visiting a country which is pur suing democratic policies.
Secondly. I haven’t been to Bangladesh for a long time and certainly think Dhaka is look Ing a much better place, streets arc better and cleaner and the buildings are more Impressive than they were a few years back. So there obvi ously appears to be progress In this city and progress in this country.
DS: Have you any thoughts you can share with us regard ing the situation in the Chittagong HOI Tracts and the Rohingya problem ?
LDE: Well, let me start with the Chittagong Hill Tracts Now, obviously. It is an Internal affair of Bangladesh. Secondly It is a problem that goes back deep into your history. Thirdly, the problem has very special interest this time, not just be cause of the massacre (in logang) or allegations of massacres. but because the world is more aware than ever before about the Importance of protecting Indigenous people.
One other things that I am much concerned about Is that. Indigenous people In all parts of the world, be It Braziltan Indian or Tibetans or Chakmas ought to have their rights — the freedom of culture, be al lowed to lake pride In their history and language and above all their need of a special protection. I’ll be attending a special conference In Rio. before the Earth Summit, on the rights of indigenous people.
So I obviously had taken an interest in what had been gnr ing on In Chittagong Hill Trai ts partly for the reason I have already mentioned in my discussion and secondly, of course, there was a massacre on April 10. and the allegation vary from one another on the total number of casualties there. They say one thousand two hundred were- killed whereas, the government vert fits that 13 died In the lnci denL That was the official fig ure I received from the General Officer Commanding tn Chittagong.
Now when there was so much differences tn each of the figures, quite clearly It demanded a through inquiry. So when I came to Bangladesh I made myself clear saying that it demanded a judicial inquiry Therefore I have been able to welcome the fact that an in dependent judicial inquiry under Justice Sultan has been announced. This Information was given to me by the Foreign Minister and I was really glad about this.
If I can get a little further. 1t is obviously an internal prob fem. but one of Interest because of the rights of Indlge nous people It is like so many other problems tn the world affected by things from out side There is no doubt In my mind that the evidence, that people have In large numbers been murdered by the Shantlbahinl. Is a part of the problem that we simply cannot Ignore.
1 firmly believe that the Shantlbahinl could never have fulfilled this murderous task If they did not have any assistance from outside. So that Is a problem which has international connotation. It may be that some Umc may come when the government of Bangladesh may seek a longer term solution. They might look to the United Nations or some other International bodies for help, who can independently come up with some advice, or some International group who can look up the matter with some authority. And for this a good relationship with India is needed.
The government of Bangladesh could not expect that Chittagong Hill Tracis should forever be governed by the Army, any more than I can wish that the situation in Northern Ireland should be always governed by the British Army.
Actually this matter has been of great concern lo the voluntary and human rights or gantsatlons tn Britain and they asked me. knowing that I was coming to Bangladesh, lo make inquiries. Before I came here I had written to the former High Commissioner on April 30 before he left l.ondon and had written to him urging that there should be a judicial In-qulry.
DS: Your lordship. you mentioned about a conference to be held tn Rio before the Earth Summit which will dis cuss the problems of Indlge nous people. Will the Chakma
issue be discussed there ? Will they be represented there in any way ?
LDE: lisa very good question. I hope that they go I really don i know thi answer to this question I know that there would be some 700 rcj> rescntatlvcs of Indigenous people throughout the world and I know that at one stage the Chakmas were on the list, but I don I know whether In fact they would be present tn Rio.
DS: You have had a look al the whole of South Asia and also South East Asia. As a hu man rights activist, how do you feel about the situation of hu sssi rights In countries which are democratic, al least has a parliamentary democracy? We are thinking of Malaysia. Singapore and we are talking about India, Pakistan. Srl l^nka and Bangladesh Are we on the right track? Are we doing It the right way ?
LDE: I think you have a long way to go. quite frankly speaking. A long way to go.
Whether wc are talking of democratic government or countries which make no claim to be democratic 1 think tn Asia in genera) there Is some severe human rights problems. I am speaking for Asia as a whole.
I look as far as Tibet. I am deeply concerned for the rights of the people of Tibet, who are a people in their own right. They have a history of their own independence, a culture and tradition which spread over hundreds of years and yet arc treated by the Chinese government as if they were sonic colonial territory. I think the issue — rights of indigenous people of Tibet has a very strong claim which must eventually be met and the government of China has lo face external criticism for the way It has treated the people of Tibet.
Myanmar is perhaps the worst example of all. Whether wc arc going to sec a change In policy by the government of Myanmar, wc simply don t know. But n there have been few good signs. The government has lifted the restriction on anyone visiting Aung San Suu Kyi and her being totally regimented. May be this Is a sign that in the coming future the government Intends to treat its people with sone re sped
However, the fact that the majority of those who were chosen to represent the people, through a free election (in I9H9) arc now In prison, doesn't yet give anyone much cause for hope Nor docs the
plight of the refugees who have conn lo’Bangladcsh. Obviously they had fled lo Bangladesh from a land which practised oppression, torture, rape, forced labour and denial of human rights. If it was not so. there would have been no good reason for them lo come here
I visited the Myanmar refugees in their camps and had great respect for the Bangladesh government In the way It Is looking after these refugees, providing shelter, food and water to the best of its abilities.
There arc about quarter of a million refugees from Myanmar and I can t believe that they arc going lo go back voluntarily without a change of situation from which they have fled. There has been an agreement that they will return But any return other than voluntary would be a second dental of their human rights If by any chance al all the gov eminent of Bangladesh de elded lo send back any of them who didn I want lo go. that would be an abuse of their hu man rights
So there must be constant international pressure on Myanmar as I believe there has lo be upon Indonesia and on China and wherever there Is gross violation of human rights and oppression against Indigenous people.
If I may add a general comment al this stage. It Is that the prospects of fulfilling the original purposes of the UN Charter Is so much better than there has been for the last 40 years, wc can now look forward with much hope to the tasks that the UN can perform. Il always seemed to mt that, though non Interference In tn tcrnal affairs of states under Article 27 was an essential part of the original member ship of the Charter, I think wc arc moving away from It bit by hit.
We arc beginning to accept that the qucstlbn of human rights at least, now go beyond faiundarles. l or example. Hie UN infact was Interfering In the Internal affairs of South ' Africa (by Imposing sanctions for Its apartheid policies), and us we look into the situations In Libya and much more so In Iraq — the UN is beginning lo say. here arc such gross breaches of human conduct that wc. the UN, must Inter vcnc on behalf of the human Ity’.
This may be a very Important time In our history. It so happens that this weekend I am Involved In a conference in Rome sponsored by the Italian government into which they have Invited all sorts of people most of whom arc far more expert than I. People like
Percx de Cuclk i .uni l ln , d Shcvarnadzc and many other people who arc now working wllhln the UN system Wc would be looking at the future of the UN under the new and happy circumstances of the ending of the Cold War I think that some of the issues that wv arc discussing arc bound to come up In that conference — can the UN fulfill the task on behalf of we. I Ik- people of th world ?
DS: The UN Charter lacks the strength of taking any kind of punitive action against court tries where violation of human rights are very obvious gross and blatant. Is there any mote al all among the human rights activists like yourself to strengthen the UN Charter or UN system, because it's not /ust a question of passing a resolution but going into some kind of action ?
LDE: Firstly, 1 would not use the term punitive action' rather I would prefer to think it as action seeking to Influence situations.
A very good example at the moment Is Libya. Quite clearly the Libyan government has been told that If it docs not meet the wishes of the Security Council and release for trial two people — the ones who arc alleged to be responsible for the bombing of the plane In which several hundreds of people had died — then the UN member states shall take definite action against this.
This fa a very Interesting example. 1 would like the Security Council to look al issues like Myanmar. But one thing must never happen, ihc power of UN should never go into the hands of a wrong power or any wrong group of
I had had concerns al the lime of ihc Gulf crisis. I could not have been more condemnatory of Ihc behaviour of Iraq and of Saddam Hussain but al the certain moment when the UN had decided economic sanction against Iraq was the proper way to influence the situation. the affair seemed to move outside of the Security Council. As you remember that I’ercz de Cucllcr then remarked that the actions taken against Iraq was not UN's action and he felt very deeply about that and I was much concerned about that too.
So. in giving more power to the UN. It must be power lo the UN. Not to the United Stales or any other countries of the world which occupy global Influence. The UN represents humanity and wc must sec that those that have power don't misuse orc flout that power by seeking to use the UN. .
DS.- One gets the feeling that much of the activities in favour of human rights has been conducted from the West. Is there anything being done to strengthen these movements in Asia. Africa and Latin America. I low do me make the Human Rights Movement gain stronger grassroot support?
LDE: It Is really going lo take a long time. I wns al a
conk-rvtxx last jvar in Nigeria, which whs attended by human rights aiiivtsts from different parts of Africa. Some of them, though they were human rights activists, had to be wry careful that they did not gel arrested by I la ir own govern ments. Sona Airtcan governments believe that any human right iK-llvlty tantamount* lo activity against their own gov ernment* So some human rights workers arc tn great danger Hut I think the sltun-tton is tmpnivlng day by day.
But In African and Mime countries In laitln America, human rights has a king way lo travel. But the situation Is Improving there also. We arc beginning to sec more and more democratic regimes In Lallrf America. But no doubt some human rights activists in Brazil even face danger to their lives. Their government considers their activities as an attack on the government.
The case is almost same In China and the other parts of Asia. So human rights In these areas has a tong way to go before it is genuinely applicable. China had made It perfectly cl. a that its concept of human rights is totally different from that of the West and Its practice Is thus unwelcome.
To tell you the truth I am not too optimistic that in the very near future there will be a genuine order In hunstn rights In these regions.
DS: Tou have given your view point about the violation of human rights in Tibet. East Timor and Burma? But how about those countries which claim to be democratic, for Instance. Bangladesh. India. Pakistan? The laws that they practice, arc they in any confrontation with the question of human rights ?
LDE: You see. I don't think I am in the business of making general critical comments. Except on specific issues. I cannot make expert opinions, since I an not an expert. I must agree that many of Ihc democracies have to face up to the fact that in many occasions they are pursuing undemocratic policies. But I don't want to discuss it by picking on or by singling out one particular government that one might say I am attacking one gowrnment iuk! these arc violations which even cannot be proved.
Ixt's say. the Kashmir Issue. I am not on Ihc side of India or Pakistan. I am on.the side of Kashmiris. They I think should have the liberty to form their own institutions and own form of government without any domination from cither of the two great powers.
People have been fighting for their rights worldwide. Such a right is the right of the Pakistanis (stranded in Bangladesh) to return lo Pakistan. Even (hough the government of Pakistan Is going a bit slow on this issue. I hope that they will come round to the commitment that they had made.
DS: When the Vietnamese boat people were sent back from Hong Kong, some observers said that they had been forced back, it is difficult to
*ay how far they were coluri
I.DE: The British Refugee Council is very much opposed to the Idea of forcing people home. I myself was much involved tn this. Both by visiting Vietnam and Hongkong and had sons: strong word* Io sny
It so happened that. In re lotion to the first group who were forced back, there were 51 people which the British government put bn a plane and look back. I spoke to 40 of those 51 I spoke to them confidentially, without being heard by any representative of the Vietnamese government.
I'Trstly none of them had been arrested by the Vietnamese authority. They were received with maximum acceptance and help, and they told me that fnfacl they were very ready lo go back to Vietnam. They had volunteered lo go back, some of them complained that even though they were volunteering to go back, they were kept waiting.
There was a rather special group, the second group which was special In the sense that they had been from Vietnam to Hongkong twice. There had been people who had gone from Hongkong to Vietnam, and some of them voluntarily to Vietnam, and then made a second trip, because 1f they came twice they would get a second rehabilitation grant.
So both of these were rather special groups. I don't think cither of these two could be labelled as typical. I am against and British Refugee Council Is totally against pco-pk- being forced back to places from which they had fled.
DS: Do you have a policy of looking Into countries from which they have Jled, to see what the situation is which prevails there ?
LDE: Yes, wc have to took at those loo. I think that much of the cause of people quitting Vietnam lo go lo some other parts of the World, whether Its Malaysia or Hongkong or anywhere. is the policies of the American government in denying the government of Vietnam and the people of Vietnam the opportunities of normal trade, and normal aid, as would apply lo any other countries. The Americans haw continued to insist ever since because the Vietnamese had defeated them in battle.
I am happy lo realize that the British government is putting maximum pressure on to the American on this specific issue and believe that there will be time when America and Vietnam will llw in better terms. The British government is now beginning lo support Ihc works of the voluntary organisations and putting increasing amount of money and there Is more and more being done by the British government nnd it shows that it doesn't accept the American theory.
I think if their was a proper aid and trade programme in Vietnam, it would put an and to the exodus of these people Because Vietnam is denied normal access to the markets of the world that II Is lagging behind than many other poor countries of the world.
DS: Your Excellency, we have Infact a very difficult situation in Northern Ireland and tve receive all kinds of reports here. Being in such a position we are really not too clear, could you brief us In short about the situation In Northern Ireland from the human rights angle?
LDE: I won't be of any solution. But I will answer to the best of my abilities.
Earlier today, talking to someone else I compared the Shantlbahinl with the Irish Republican Army (IRA) who are committing acts of violence, murder and anarchy. They are killing people without any thought about the people they are killing. It 1s violence of a disgraceful kind whether Its Is the Shanlibahini or Ihc IRA such acts of vlo fence- and thoughtless murder make a political solution nil ihc more difficult.
But there must be a political solution . As there must be a solution for the Chakmas and majority of the people in Northern Ireland want to find .1 political solution. The proportionate people who are tn-volwd in violence are minute. They feel oppressed by the murderous activities of the IRA. They would like to see, as I would like lo see a political solution and an ewnlual withdrawal of British forces and that must be our objeettw.
I would like lo see an eventual agreement about the whole of Ireland. The gowrnment of the Republic of Ireland Is anxious to find a solution. As you know that there are talks that take place regu larly between the governments of the Republic and of Britain, keeping In mind a solution for Northern Ireland and eventually a solution must be found.
You with the Shantlbahinl. wc with the IRA are left with a situation which has been difficult for a political solution by the use of deliberate actions of violence and murd« The arms arc often smuggred nnd supplied from outside. There are book- Americans who buck IRA activists lo create viotenev tn Belfast, as outside assis lance had powered lnl«> lh hand* of Shantibahlnl lo kill innocent people here I for myself want to see a definite solution to, the crisis in Northern Ireland, even If by united the two parts of Ireland together.
To achieve a peaceful settlement on the Issue the democratic views of the people of Northern Ireland must of course be taken into consideration by the British government. *
DS: As a human rights activists do you have a strong feeling against the growth of armaments in the modern world? You know there Is this new theory that, let us reduce the areas of consumption and cut short defence expenditure and use it in development works. How do you feel alxiut it?
LDE: I totally agree with you and I think it imposes heavy respbnsibllity on those who supply arms and those who buy-arms. The problems take shape from both the two side.
The relatively developed western countries including China produce huge arms inspired by many of the less developed countries who are eager to buy them. Some governments arc spending massive proportion of their budget on defence and not on education and health and human betterment, but upon maintaining huge armies which protect dictatorship and often protect people who arc making big money out of business. There is a too closer a link between arms trade and protection of business inter-
1 believe in a world where we want to sec at the end of the Cold War, a greater measure of peace, everyone should be alert that we do not use such high proportion of our resources for armaments. The decade has not really created any opportunity where we can drastically reduce the expend! ture and production of arms.
Another focus is that the difference or gap between the rich and the poor has only multiplied in the past few years and It is still Increasing at an alarming rate. The least developed countries are only repaying debts and it seems like their money Is pouring Into the hands of the developed donors more than they receive from then. It is monstrous and I think that the powerful countries of the world should face up to this fact and come to the aid of the lesser developed countries. I put forward this case at, the conference In Rio. Of course, I do not have any considerable power as I only represent a few non-governmental organisations like World Federation of United Nations Association and the British United Nations Association. So I firmly agree with you and think that Ihc poorer or k-ss developed countries of the world should not be lured to purchase arms al the cost of their other basic need*.
D& You have visaed the nfugee camps in Cox's Haxar. Do yrm think that the bilateral agreements between Hangladesh and Myanmar is going to ivorkoul?
UJE: It still remains more of a choice or option for Myanmar. It will work out if they want it to workout. Myanmar authorities first have to make sure that the environment for repatriation of the refugees is safe for them. Il also has to be confirmed by the UN personnels who will monitor the situation prevailing tn Myanmar. Without some action from Myanmar it is difficult lo believe that the agreement Just as it now stands can work. Because people should be allowed lo live in their own countries in freedom. But
Myanmn h.i- 1-- do enough lo taiprrss lls»« ri-lngce* Ihnl they will liw in M curity and pc.mx- tlx-rv .owl imM continued opprvssioii . And B.iiigLik'*h in that way also will not haw to be burdciKxl with refugees from other miinlriea.
So anyone who would want ft lo work wociM surely haw to create conditions.
DS: lord Ennals. do you think that Bangladesh slwtlrl have played tougher with Myanmar in this issue lo force them to allow United Nai ion monitoring and observance from all over the world?
LDE: No. I honestly think that they did (Bangladesh leaders) their best. I haw spoken lo many high foreign office personnel here and am convinced that there couldn't haw been a better approach.
Dt>: One question tvhirh we really should have asked ls-Jorv. because il relates to the mailer of the indigenous i>eo pie. we were wondering If human rights acttuisls are also similady concerned about the rights of minorities over the world, who are not Indigeturus but who may Just be minotilies in lerqw .of number?
• LDE: You see. the right* of Indigenous people 1* one question and the rights of mi-norillcs is another. Most states contain within their bound ■tries minorities. Peopk- of minority languages, races, cultures and religions almost ex 1st in every countries. The rights of these peopk- have lo be respected as much as the rights of indigenous people.
To differentiate the two I would say most minorities liave friends elsewhere, but the indigenous people arc pretty
deprived, poor and friendk-». But their rights arc as Important to be protected as the right* ( the Indigenous pro-
DS: Would you agree that not enough has been done alssit ihnl?
LDE: Al present liumaii rights orgiuiisullons fats- a big ger challenge of protecting the rights of mlnorilie* and Indigenous peopk- as the world Is dividing Into small Islels and a vast country like tin-Soviet Union break up into small minority groups Yugoslavia is another ■■-*• where the rights of minorities must be protected. So wc arc facing more challenges now. But at the same time we feel that we arc better equipped than ever before in protecting the rights of minorities and indigenous people worldwide.
DS: Thank you Lord Ennals. for your time.